Narrator: Welcome to
Testing, Testing 1-2-3.

A podcast brought to you by TestGenius

Jenny Arnez: Welcome everybody
to Testing, Testing 1-2-3.

This podcast is a presentation, a
Biddle Consulting Group, incorporated

the publishers of TestGenius.

The topics covered in this podcast are
sometimes controversial and pertain

to an often changing landscape.

The opinions expressed of the host,
Mike and myself, and guests are their

own and may not align with those of
the organization for which they work.

None of the conversation or resources
shared on this podcast should

be construed to be legal advice.

As a best practice, if you have
concerns over these issues or opinions

expressed, you should explore them
with an attorney or other expert.

And with that, let's begin.

With me again today is Mike Callen,
the President of TestGenius.

Michael Callen: Hello, Jenny.

Good to be back with you as always.

Jenny Arnez: Yes.

I love these.

I love these conversations.

Always learn a lot.

Michael Callen: Yep, I do as well.

Thank you.

Jenny Arnez: Oh good.

Today our topic is You
Say You Don't Test.".

And let me give a little context of that.

Our team attends about 25
conferences and trade shows a year.

And sometimes people will come up
to our trade show booth and they'll

be looking at our backdrop and our
sign and they'll look at and they

go, oh, testing, you do testing.

Oh, we don't do that.

And sometimes it leads
into a conversation.

So we thought it would be
beneficial today to talk about

that So you say you don't test?

Michael Callen: Yeah.

Often it doesn't lead into a conversation.

And so I think, that's why I'm so
excited to have this conversation with

you today is that we have an opportunity
to talk about this really important

issue that I feel really passionately
about and be able to provide some

really great reasons why having that
attitude is wrong and why people

absolutely, positively should be testing.

Jenny Arnez: Okay.

And actually just occurred to
me, Mike, maybe we should pull

back the lens a little bit.

Do you want to just kinda give
a couple of sentences about what

we do what, when we say testing.

TestGenius and testing.

What are we talking about?

Michael Callen: What we do is
predominantly skill and ability testing.

We started off mostly doing
hard skills and abilities.

Really concrete work sample type of tests
where people are having to do the kind of

tasks or duties that they would have to
do on the job, but without having on the

job experience or on the job training.

So basically what we do is we look
at jobs, we look at job analyses,

and we try to sort out what are the
fundamental skills and abilities that

are necessary for success on a job.

And, but how can we make sure that the job
applicants have the requisite amount of

success in that skillability area on day
one of the job as is required by the job.

So that's what we're trying to do.

And now after we started off in that
route, we've subsequently added a lot

of soft skills tests and even some
personality tests in different markets.

And so we're doing more than
hard skills testing, but also

soft skills testing as well.

So what we're gonna talk about today
is, why is it that an organization

should absolutely consider to employ
these skill and ability testing and

personality, soft skills testing
products ours and other people's as well.

Particularly if they have an attitude
where they're against doing so.

So that's it.

Jenny Arnez: Okay, great.

Thank you Mike.

Thanks for that background.

Why don't I go ahead and put our slides up

and do you want to kick us off?

Michael Callen: Yeah, I think
you kicked us off perfectly.

Really this was a hundred percent
inspired by real life conversations,

that we have at conferences where,

HR managers, recruiters, people that
are right in the space that, the folks

that we want to talk to and the folks
who should be really interested in

what we do sometimes walk up to us
and say, oh, we either don't do this

or we've been told we can't do this.

Or even sometimes people
say it's illegal to do this.

And, of course that's not the case.

But that's what we want
to do is break it down.

And so I have five main points that I
want to talk about with you today, Jenny.

And within the first one, there's
about 10 subpoints that are in there.

And yeah, let's just do that.

Let's just go ahead and kick it off.

So point number one whether you're
testing or you're not testing, it's

super important to know or remember
that nearly everything that occurs

in a recruitment is already a test.

Even if you're not doing hard skills
and ability testing or personality

testing or behavioral testing, it's very
likely that what you are doing some of

what you're doing is literally testing.

I think the next slide
has a point on here.

What we want to talk about here when
we talk about testing people tend to

gravitate towards a test, a typing test,
or a multitasking test or a personality

test, and to think of that as tests.

But back in the 1960s there was a landmark
case called Griggs versus Duke Power.

And I want to say right up front I've
learned all this from our CEO Dan

Biddle I was not educated in this arena.

And working around him and learning from
him, I was able to understand the genesis

of this particular topic, When the Civil
Rights Act of 1964 came into to play there

was basically it was explained that as
an unlawful to discriminate against race

or to not hire minorities intentionally.

And so to us it's duh.

That's the most obvious
thing in the world.

But there was literally a time and
a place and our not too distant past

where this was a regular occurrence.

And so the Civil Rights
Act of 64 came out.

It was ratified but it didn't
come into effect until 1965 and

the Duke Power Company was
hiring for a particular position.

And so what they did is they decided
to employ a test that they thought

would screen out minorities because
they had to now have some sort of

decision making process in place.

And they waited until the
very, very end of 1964.

as it turns out, that test, as they had
intended, had really bad adverse impact.

But furthermore, it wasn't valid
or consistent with business

necessity for this particular job.

It was testing for things that
went way above and beyond the

requirements of this particular job.

And so there was a plaintiff named
Griggs who, hired an attorney,

and sued Duke Power because of
this unfair testing practice.

And during the course of this case
it was determined or what was defined

was something called PPTs, which we
refer to a lot within, our internal

Biddle Consulting Group space
PPTs, as the slide shows stands for

practices, procedures, or tests.

And so when we talk about a test
there's two layers of definition.

If you zoom right in on it, there's
the testing that TestGenius does.

If you need to type on a job, we're
gonna give you a typing test that's

gonna measure speed and accuracy
within a certain amount of time with

content that might be similar to the
content that would be typed on the job.

That's a test and it's really obvious,
but there are tons of other aspects

of the recruitment process that are
practices, procedures, and tests that

result in some portion of an applicant
population not advancing in a recruitment.

And so therefore, any of these steps
that occur within the recruitment process

should be considered to be tests or
PPTs practices, procedures, and tests.

Certain PPTs that are in place that
maybe wouldn't directly screen a group

of people out, but maybe because of
how they are constructed or where they

are posted or located, they actually
end up precluding a portion of the

population from even being included
in the process from the very start.

Most organizations use a software program
called an applicant tracking system.

the main purpose for the applicant
tracking system is to collect

demographics at each step of recruitment
and compare it to the census data on

availability of the population within
your recruitment area who would be

available for this particular job.

comparing the census data on
availability and the actual results.

It can see if there's a statistical
disparity between the available

population and the actual population
that end up moving through each and

every one of the steps that occur.

And unless you have any questions or
comments, We can go ahead and move.

Forward to the first one.

Jenny Arnez: Yeah, let's move
forward because I think my questions

you're already going to answer them.

I peeked ahead and I saw
the next slide, so I know.

Michael Callen: great.

Jenny Arnez: We're gonna start answering.

Michael Callen: Awesome.

Jenny Arnez: I know it.

Michael Callen: So point number one under
the PPTs, which is, nearly everything

in a recruitment is a test is the
job posting and people don't really

often think about the job posting.

But it's a vitally important aspect
of the human resource function.

So typically what happens is there's
some sort of job analysis that's

been done that ferrets out the duties
that are performed on the job the

knowledge, skills and abilities that
are necessary to perform those duties.

And there's some sort of sorting
of what are the fundamental duties

that require knowledge, skills, and
abilities that are needed on day one

of the job before there's on the job
training or brief orientations So the

job posting is going to have within
it text that would include things

like, here's the position of the job.

It might be the pay that's offered.

It might be the days and hours of the job.

It might be minimal qualifications that
are necessary to be successful on the job.

And then also desirable qualifications.

We call those MQs and Dqs that are helpful
and can maybe position one applicant

ahead of another in terms of the job.

And so when you look at the job
posting, two really important

aspects of it are one, where is that
job posting located or posted to?

So if there is a venue, a newspaper,
or a bulletin board or whatever

that isn't inherently accessible
by the same population that is

the available population for the
job, then you can literally have

adverse impact right outta the gate.

Let's say that there's some sort
of newspaper that is predominantly

read by white people, for instance.

And so if you have this newspaper and
you're advertising your job predominantly

to white people and their availability
for people of color for this particular

job, is significant but they're not
seeing the job posting, then right

out of the gate your demographic of
your job applicants could be lacking

as compared to the availability.

The second thing that's really
important about it is the content.

And so when you have a job posting,
It's vital that before an organization

posts something regarding available
job to their website or newspapers

or wherever they post them, that
they stop and they do a review.

Let's make sure that the things that
we're saying about this job are correct.

Say for instance, you have a job that
you're posting for that requires people

to pick up 50 pound bags of concrete and
load them and stack them onto a pallet

to get ready to have them shrink wrapped.

So if you go through and you post
that but then later you find out that

those bags are no longer 50 pound bags.

The safety people did a review and they
found out there was too many people

getting hurt and they realized if they
bumped 'em down to 25 pound bags, that

not as many people would get hurt on the
job, and therefore they made that change.

If you tell people you have to lift
50 pound bags all day long instead of

25 pound bags, and that's wrong, you
have actually created adverse impact

that you otherwise could have avoided.

Understanding where a job posting is
located and making sure that the content

in that job posting is correct, is really
vital to avoiding adverse impact right out

of the gate that otherwise would not have
occurred if you had done things correctly.

And again, to go back to the a
ATS, the applicant tracking system,

they're able to go through and know
what is the demographic of our job

applicants versus the availability.

And to be able to look at those
populations and to determine if

there's any statistic differences
between the two groups.

So does that make sense?

Jenny Arnez: It does.

So just as an example, a really basic
one, let's say that the job posting says

that the job is, Monday through Friday
from seven to four with an hour lunch.

If I were to apply for that job, or
I read that job posting, but that's

not my availability, then that
in a sense, that's a test because

it filters me out of the process.

Michael Callen: When you have
it, you're right, it is a test.

However, It is a test that is valid
and consistent with business necessity.

So you may have a test that has
adverse impact against protected

groups or non-protected groups,
and that doesn't necessarily mean

that adverse impact has occurred.

Or maybe it's an acceptable
amount of adverse impact because

the typical example for this is
to go back to the concrete bags.

Men are historically stronger than women.

Their body types are different, and
they are more well suited to doing

work like lifting concrete bags.

if you gave a physical ability test
that ask people to pick up these 25

pound bags or 50 pound bags, and they
were to stack them on there, they may

find that the rate at which women fail
that test could be nine or 10 times

the rate at which men fail that test.

So that in itself is adverse impact.

However, the test is a
simulation of the job.

And if you cannot complete the test,
then it's very likely to assume

that you cannot complete the job.

And so that's where that issue
of validation comes into play.

So on one hand or one one side of
the shop, we want to make sure that

we avoid adverse impact wherever
we can avoid adverse impact.

But on the other side of the shop, the
testing side of the shop, we go into that

knowing that sometimes there are tests
that are valid and they're consistent

with business necessity that will either
over the life of the test, during one

recruitment, during a year of recruiting,

Inevitably, you may find that there is
some adverse impact that occurs, but

if your test is valid and consistent
with business necessity, then you are

accept it is an acceptable process
to go through and to do that testing.

And that's really a whole nother
side of this particular issue

we're talking about today.

Which probably, I think we've
explored it in a prior podcast where

we talked more about validation, but
we might want to dig into it again.

Great question.

Thank you.

Jenny Arnez: Yeah, thank you.

Should I move on?

Michael Callen: Yeah, absolutely.

So the second point is
the job application.

And people often don't even
think about this as being a test.

But job applications some of them
require very minimal information,

but some require more information.

And sometimes the information that
is collected or the way that the

information is being requested
can result in adverse impact.

One of the things that can happen,
just for an example, is it may be an

issue where somebody is asking on a
job application if you have college

degree or if you have a high school
diploma, and those questions for a

particular job may result in adverse
impact against a protected group.

And so the question becomes do,
why are you asking that question?

If you, we go back to the job
where you know the person is

gonna be stacking concrete bags.

What about a high school diploma
Makes that an appropriate question?

And then if you ask that question and you
end up in a disparity of job applicants

versus availability, now all of a
sudden, you've caused adverse impact.

So you want to be really cognizant
of and analytical about the content

that is on the job application, and
you want to make sure that you're not

asking things that are unnecessary.

Very often people have asked
questions regarding how far

are you located from work?

The reason being that they may decide
that the people who live closer to the

office are less likely to be late on the
job or have issues getting into work.

And so what starts off as, maybe a
well-meaning reason depending on where the

work is located, it could end up causing
adverse impact if the location is located

way out in the suburbs where you may have
less people of color versus the inner city

where you may have more people of color.

And this is again, just an example, by
asking that question and trying to not

call people in to become applicants
moving further on into the process,

again, you may cause adverse impact.

And so think about the
questions that are being asked.

And even if you have good well-meaning
reasons the fact that somebody has

to commute 30 miles to get into
a job is not a good reason to not

allow them to continue to become
an applicant and then to move on

to becoming a candidate for hire.

And I would reference just the Bay area
of California, how many people there

commute, two hours a day from 60 or more
miles, and it's hundreds of thousands

of people that do that probably.

Jenny Arnez: So we've looked at
job posting and job application,

so the third one is tests.

Michael Callen: Yeah.

So this is the easy one because
this is what everybody's expecting.

These are the skill, ability, knowledge
personal characteristics, personality,

situational judgment, all of the kinds
of tests that people might use in

order to differentiate among applicants
to determine who should be moved on

to the next step in the recruitment.

And in fact, when they say
they're not testing this is

what they say they're not using.

And so to that end, on the latter
part of this meeting today, we'll

talk more about why it is that they
need to consider using tests because

there are really good reasons,
compelling reasons why that's the case.

Jenny Arnez: Okay.

So our next one is background check.

Michael Callen: Okay, so background
checks are tests, and if you do

background checks, some people are going
to pass and some people are gonna fail.

And when you go through your applicant
tracking system, you want to stop

and you want to look and you want
to find out, what's going on with

your demographics and your metrics.

And you want to be aware of that.

But again, it comes down
to the validity aspect.

So if you are.

Bringing somebody in, why are
you doing a background check?

Maybe you do background checks
for everybody because, there's

security or merchandise or whatever.

It's public safety.

There can be really good reasons
why background checks are used,

but you want to make sure that you
are applying those universally.

Don't test people for this position for
background checks if you're not gonna

test these people over in this other
position if they are in the same realm.

And I want to differentiate there 'cause
there could be a little confusion.

Let's say you're hiring the cash
carriers that drive the armored cars

and carry, money into, the banks.

You may need to do background
checks on all those people.

It doesn't necessarily mean that you
need to do a background check for

admin assistance who work in the office
who aren't around the cash at all.

However, if you have for instance,
the entry level worker that would be

the armed guard and the supervisor who
would be the armed guard, those are two

different positions, you should use the
background checks on both of those sets

of people so you're applying it equally.

Jenny Arnez: Okay, so
we have credit check.

Michael Callen: Yeah, credit checks.

Those are tests.

Sometimes jobs require a credit
check for whatever reasons, maybe

they want to make sure that people
aren't financially compromised so

somebody could take advantage of them.

This is very common for a
prison guard for instance.

You want to make sure that you don't
have an extraordinary amount of debt.

Police officers anybody who's
in a situation where they're

dealing with members of the public
and being in a bad financial

situation could put them at risk.

That's something that
happens and that is a test.

Jenny Arnez: Okay.

Then we have a telephone interview.

Michael Callen: Yeah.

So that might be a pre-interview.

And if you are talking to people and
some people survive the process and

are moved forward and other people
aren't, that's a test as well.

Jenny Arnez: Okay.

And then an in-person interview,

Michael Callen: Obviously, this
is one of the biggest ones, it

often is a very subjective process.

Sometimes people do structured interviews
and there are less subjective, but

there's a certain amount of subjectivity
when people are talking to somebody,

they're asking questions and then
they're rating or making decisions

upon the responses that people
give to each of those questions.

But it's a test absolutely, positively.

And I would imagine that nearly a
hundred percent of the people who

aren't using the traditional tests
in point C are doing in interviews.

They're not just hiring people
outright from a job application, and

so they are testing people whether,
they'd like to think so or not.

Jenny Arnez: Then we have
our physical ability tests.

Michael Callen: Physical ability tests
are something that can be done upfront.

Physicals.

Those are typically considered
post offer testing process.

And you can't really dig down
deeply until you've offered

somebody a job offer for hire.

That's where you can actually get
down and send somebody to a doctor.

And a doctor could go through
and look and see, do you have any

musculoskeletal issues that might
preclude you from performing on the job?

And at that point, they can
rescind the offer and move forward.

Jenny Arnez: And then we
have psychological screening.

Michael Callen: Yeah.

Not a lot of positions use this,
but there are certain positions,

emergency services, dispatcher,
obviously police, probably fire where

they're doing a psych screening.

They're looking for abnormal personality.

when you have people that are working
in the emergency services with the

public or with a confined population
and those things are tests as well.

Jenny Arnez: Okay.

I think our last, training or academy.

Michael Callen: Yeah, so some
positions, once you get hired, you

move immediately into a training
program or an academy, and you go

through that process and you have to
traditionally graduate from that process.

They'll call it different terms,
but if some people make it through

and some people don't make it
through, that also is a test.

And maybe some people don't have
all of these that they're offering,

but everybody has some of these.

And so even if you're not using
traditional tests, you're gonna be

using some of these items somewhere
along the way, and you are testing

because these are all, PPTs.

These are all practices, procedures,
or tests that are determining whether

or not a human being is moving
on in the recruitment process.

Jenny Arnez: Yeah I would think
most positions would at least do

a job posting B, job, application,
and then that interview.

Michael Callen: Yeah.

Jenny Arnez: Yeah, that's really helpful.

Michael Callen: Yeah.

That's three tests that
they're moving through.

Again, like every other PPT, you
want to make sure that it's valid and

consistent with business necessity.

Are we asking for things
that we shouldn't ask for?

You should be looking at the applicant
tracking data to make sure that there

isn't any sort of step along the
way that's causing persons to fail.

And it's probably important to to talk
about adverse impact and disparate impact.

Adverse impact is a aspect
of the statistical disparity

that is non not intentional.

And that's usually what happens
when there's adverse impact.

Somebody will inadvertently post a
job where it says you gotta lift a

bag that's heavier than the bag that
you have to actually lift on the job.

And that would be adverse impact and
it's unintentional adverse impact.

But one of the main reasons why you
want to go through and do this is

that you want to make sure that there
isn't disparate impact that's in play.

When you have a person who is in human
resources, such as a recruiter who's

making decisions, there's a lot of
authority within that one human being.

if you have somebody who is not of a
proper mindset who's making decisions,

it could be that they are making
decisions that are based upon invalid

selection criteria that could be
adversely impacting women or people

of color or other protected groups in
a way that's really darn insidious.

And again, that's where we
have these applicant tracking

systems is to make sure.

No

organization or leaders of an
organization want to wake up someday

and read about themselves in a newspaper
because they've got some rogue HR

person who's out there throwing away
all the job applications from people

with Hispanic surnames, for instance.

It's just, that's just
plain evil and wrong.

despite what's happening in the
news right now that's wrong and

it's always wrong and, that's
something that should never happen.

People should never be denied an
opportunity where they otherwise

should be given the opportunity to
step through this process and become,

go from an applicant to a candidate,
potentially to an employee if you fail

for a reason that's valid and consistent
with business necessity along the way.

That's all fine and dandy.

So just important to understand
that difference between adverse

impact and disparate impact.

Jenny Arnez: Yeah.

Thank you.

Sure.

So we're talking about a response
to people say, yeah, we don't test.

And so that's what this podcast is about.

So your first point here is that nearly
everything in a recruitment is a test,

and you list several here, A through J.

And now we're going to move on
to the next main point that is

subjective versus objective measures.

Michael Callen: First of all, yeah, like
you said, we've got these PPTs and whether

you're testing or not testing that's
something that you want to be aware of.

The second thing is if you are not testing
using tests like what TestGenius offers,

we have a process built into our software
that either allows you to validate the

software, or we provide documentation that
allows you to transport that validity over

to the position that you're using it for.

So if you're not using those kinds
of concrete measures then what are

you using to make your selections?

And that's where you go to the
other items that you pointed out.

You've got your job posting, you got
your job application, and then it

comes down to the in-person interview.

Now, your typical applicant
isn't gonna be thinking about

the job posting or the application,
maybe unless they encounter something

along the way that makes 'em go, wow,
I don't really feel good about this.

Then they might ask a question.

But if you are applying for a job and
you have passed through the first two

steps, the posting in the application,
and you get invited in for an interview

and you know that you have the requisite
skills, abilities, maybe experiences

that are necessary for this particular
job, and you sit down and you do a job

interview with someone and you don't
get called back for something and you

feel like that interview went well then
that causes an undue amount of focus on

that subjective measure, that interview.

And so really this has to do with just
how we're situating a person in terms

of how they feel about the process.

And so if you back it up one step
and you say, prior to the interview,

I go and I take skill and ability
tests, and those skill and ability

tests are face valid to me.

That is they feel like the kind
of thing that I would be doing on

this job that I've applied for.

And I feel like I don't do well on
those tests and I don't get advanced

to the next step, then I probably am
gonna feel pretty well about that.

If I am skilled enable,
and nobody gives me a test.

And I sit down and I talk to somebody
and they interview me, and they're

asking me questions that don't really
make me feel like they're job related.

They're just sorting out
whether or not they like me.

Then it's really important for
organizations recruiters, HR staff

in particular, to own that and
to say, is that a really, good

process that we have in place?

It comes down to the point where you want
to make sure that your job applicants

feel as though the process was fair.

And if they should have had a good
chance to move forward, you know

that the odds are that they will.

And if they didn't have a good opportunity
to move forward, it's for a good reason.

And so that's where having objective
measures in place is really valuable.

Jenny Arnez: Okay.

I don't think it's a stretch to say that
an interview is a subjective measure.

Anybody who's gone in for an interview
knows that because we always prepare.

And right.

We make sure our hair looks good,
we'd make sure we present well.

We want people to feel
good in our presence.

Is there is there a place for subjective
measures in the hiring process?

Michael Callen: Yeah, absolutely.

And that's another really
great question, Jenny.

I'm gonna talk a little bit more
about this in the fifth point.

But there are functions that a
human can provide that are way

beyond that a computer can provide
at least at this particular point.

And so one of the reasons why we
want to test is that the recruitment

process does require almost always
that there are subjective measures,

like the interview that you're talking
about where people have to go through

and make a determination that's based
upon, some set of human components.

And it might come down to, I feel
that they won't do a good job,

or I feel that they won't fit in.

Our test can't feel.

And so if that is a valid and
valuable part of the process,

that's something that a human can
provide and probably a human alone.

And so that's fine.

It's absolutely fine, but you want to
do it in a positive proportion so that

there's a good feeling about that.

Jenny Arnez: And consistency

Michael Callen: that

Jenny Arnez: Consistently.

The way you interview one
person is the same way that

you interview the next person.

Michael Callen: Interviews or any
other subjective measures, you want

to use the same measures against that
everyone who's participating in, that

recruitment absolutely, positively.

And as soon as you vary from that
process, you may have adversely impacted

somebody to their extreme disadvantage.

Jenny Arnez: Thanks Mike.

Sure.

That's good.

Let's move on.

So you've got optics.

Michael Callen: Yeah, optics.

This isn't something that people
thought about 30 years ago, but now

you know, we have this thing called
social media and everybody's a

critic and everybody has an opinion.

And those opinions aren't always valid.

But the degree to which you can
control the valid opinions you

want to be thinking about optics.

Almost everybody who has a recruitment
is recruiting to their own constituency.

In some cases, it's their own
customers or their own market.

And If you are not offered a job
or you are not advanced through

a particular process with an
organization, the HR should be thinking

about what are the optics of that.

And again, it goes back to the prior point
when you're using objective measures.

And if I go through and I'm asked
to, take a Word test, an Excel test,

and a PowerPoint test, and I struggle
with those tests, I'm going to feel

as though I probably didn't deserve
to be moved on to the next step.

And if I don't get moved on to
the next step, I'm not gonna

feel really bad about it.

I'm gonna, I might feel bad because
I was looking forward to the job,

but I'm not going to blame the
employer or the process for that.

Now, you're always going to have
somebody who has a problem and

who's gonna complain, but that's
also a part of social media.

But when you have 99 good comments
and one bad comment, think about Yelp.

You're gonna go, you're
gonna look for a restaurant.

Somebody might have four stars.

The last review might be a terrible
review about service or something.

But if there's 95 reviews behind it,
you're willing to forego that one and

then take in the opinions of the others.

And I think that's a really
important part of the recruitment

process that often gets forgotten
in terms of looking at these PPTs.

Jenny Arnez: Yeah, I totally agree.

I think now more than ever,
every business at some level is

a public business or potentially

Michael Callen: if you're
private sector, you're public.

And if you're public
sector, you're public.

Yeah.

There's not anybody who really
isn't unless you're top secret.

But then they're not gonna be
talking about you probably.

Jenny Arnez: All right.

So now we're at work sample tests.

Michael Callen: Okay.

So understanding how work sample tests fit
into the recruitment is very important.

Our TestGenius tests, for instance,
are the kind of tests where you are

asked to do something but the majority
of the canned test within TestGenius

are work sample tests, which are

going to have an applicant sit
down at a computer and perform a

function that would be similar to a
function that's performed on the job.

Now there's two really important
advantages of giving work sample tests.

The first one is that, again, if I
go and I take these tests and I don't

do well on the tests, I feel like
it's okay that I lost the opportunity

to move forward in the process.

I feel good about that.

But the other aspect of this is that
they can serve these kinds of work

sample tests can serve as something
called a realistic job preview.

One of the best examples that we have
for that is in our CritiCall testing.

We have this whole brand of tests
for emergency services dispatcher,

police, fire, 9 1 1 EMS, utility,
ambulance, all those environments where

people have to get phone calls
from the public or from other

people that they work with.

Where issues are reported, it's
a very high stress situation.

They have to be multitasking
and they have to be able to go

through and work through that job.

And so if you have a good work sample
test that puts someone who does not

possess the skills and abilities to, for
instance, multitask, the test itself is

going to make you feel uncomfortable.

Now, I have taken this test a hundred
times since 1999 when we were first

developing it, and I am not a multitasker,
and I know exactly what's gonna happen

in the test, and yet it makes me feel
very bad about that job making me

realize that I'm not a multitasker,

I really don't want
that job to begin with.

And so what I will do is I
will self deselect from the

recruit recruitment process.

I will say, this job really isn't for me.

And, maybe I wouldn't have been
moved on, but I'm not gonna

pursue this job any longer.

But again, this is the most
important part of this point.

And this is the thing that people who
don't do testing don't understand is

that this self deselection process
is so good for everybody, okay?

Obviously it's good for the organization.

You didn't hire, train onboard and
have fail somebody who should never

have gotten the job to begin with.

That's a really tragic issue.

Not only, for that particular person, but
for all the people that they work with.

They've been waiting for
this person to get hired.

They're excited, they
get to know this person.

They come in and they fail,
and then they get dismissed.

That's a big problem.

But again, to go back to
this optics situation, it's

really good for the person.

Juxtapose the person who took a work
sample test failed and realized the

job wasn't for them as compared to
the person who got hired, onboarded,

trained and then went on to fail
on the job and get dismissed.

How does that person feel in scenario
B versus the person in scenario A?

And that's a hundred percent avoidable
by going through and making sure that you

have a good testing procedure that's in
place wherever possible, exposing these

job applicants to a realistic job review,
giving them an out in the process, giving

you an out that they also would accept.

So it's a really super important point
for HR departments to keep in mind.

Jenny Arnez: Oh yeah.

And as you're talking about the work
sample tests, I think how important it

is to make sure that you're selecting
that your tests are valid, right?

If you have me testing on Excel advanced
skills, but that job, the job I'm

applying for doesn't require it, then
that's not a realistic job preview.

Michael Callen: No, and that I think
is the crux of why it is that certain

people will decide to not test, or one
of the reasons why they will decide to

not test is that, they're, they have a
concern that the test won't be valid.

And that's a really good concern
not to overuse the term valid,

but it's a valid concern.

We have tools that are in place that
allow organizations to ensure very

quickly and easily that a test is valid
and consistent with business necessity.

There are certain maxims that are in place
regarding human resources that determine

what kind of tests should
be used on the job.

If you're just using Excel at a basic
level and you give an advanced Excel

test, you have tested beyond the job.

You can't do that.

If you have to lift 25
pounds of bags of concrete.

You can't say you're only gonna be
testing for five minutes, so I'm gonna

have you lift 50 pound bags of concrete.

You cannot do that.

It's illegal to do that.

And the Dial case is a case where the
Dial corporation tested on a line job at a

level beyond the level of the job itself.

And they ended up having to
pay a lot of money out to

plaintiffs because they did that.

And so it's just one of those
areas that's clearly wrong.

So it's each organization's responsibility
to make sure that their tests are valid

and consistent with business necessity.

When you look at our tests, we provide
a tool that allow you to do that.

It'll literally generate a 30 plus
page validation report that's for

this particular position at your
organization, complete with, a table

that tells you of these seven tests,
here's the ones that are valid, and

here's some suggested cutoff scores
that would show competence in this area.

So we're literally walking you
down the primrose path allowing

you to do this in a safe way.

Now, look at all those other PPTs,
you're making decisions at those levels.

What do you have in place that allows you
to make sure that your interview happens

in a valid and business consistent way?

What makes sure that your job
application is done that way, or any

of the other PPTs that we listed, or
any other ones that we didn't list.

You are already doing testing and you
should be concerned about your validity.

And by the way, if you use concrete
testing or even soft skills or behavioral

testing, we give you the tools that
are necessary to show that this is

valid and consistent with business
necessity, either in establishing

it locally for that position or in
transporting the criterion validity

through a transportability report.

Jenny Arnez: Really to flip
that over, what you're saying is

somebody says, we don't test because
we're concerned about validity.

You're saying that's exactly
why you need to test.

because of your concern for validity.

Michael Callen: And when somebody's
standing at your table at a conference,

it's hard to tell them that.

It's hard to say to
them look, you're wrong.

Jenny Arnez: Maybe
they're listening today.

Michael Callen: Nobody likes to hear that.

But that's the point.

And so what we try to do is we try
to have, a little bit of an elevator

pitch ready to be able to try to get
'em to think about it differently.

And these are, really good reasons as
to why they want to do that, for sure.

Jenny Arnez: So let's hit
that fifth point -paper trail.

Michael Callen: Yeah.

The paper trail is a really important
aspect of this issue within recruitment

Let me tell you a story that will
highlight the point and then we can

get a little more granular with it.

Again, we do a lot of work with dispatch
centers and we're at a lot of conferences

in that space, and I have over the years,
many times, had the same conversation

with different center directors and
they will tell me that, I could sit down

with a person and talk to 'em for five
or 10 minutes and know whether or not

they're gonna be successful on the job.

I know absolutely positively
that they're telling the truth.

They have been around
the game long enough.

They know how people operate.

They know enough about the human nature
as it pertains to this particular

position, and they could have a
brief conversation with somebody and

determine whether or not somebody
was gonna be successful on the job.

However.

Even though they would be
successful in that regard.

The problem there goes back to the
optics aspect is I sit down, I have an

interview with somebody and somebody
decides through a short conversation

with me that I can't multitask.

People talk to me all the time while
I'm texting, therefore I can multitask.

That's not the same thing, but in
their mind it is the same thing.

And so if I have a problem with that
recruitment process, the best solution

for that is having some sort of paper
trail that documents the process.

And so what the same people who
talk to us at conferences and they

say, I can sort out whether or not
somebody's gonna be successful or not.

We'll finish that conversation by
saying, but I choose to not to do that.

First of all, I don't want to spend
my valuable time talking to people

who don't have the skill and ability
necessary for success on the job.

But more importantly, they understand
this paper trail aspect and they

understand that if somebody doesn't
feel good about that part of the

recruitment, it's probably the most
highly subjective thing that we've talked

about this entire conversation here.

But if somebody goes through that
particular process and they're weeded

out to some subjectivity in five or ten
minutes, there isn't any paper trail that

allows people to show that the process
was valid and to have the degree of

defensibility that you would want to have.

And so if you go back and you say, this
center director is able to sort out

whether or not people have the skills or
abilities, then you can take that one step

back prior, and you can say why
don't we just give tests for those

skills and abilities and personal
characteristics, and let's make sure in

a concrete way that they possess them.

So the center director isn't
put into that situation.

Having a

testing process in place is a really
important aspect because there is

documentation all along the way as to
what decisions were made and in most

cases why those decisions were made.

And if the test is gonna screen
out the greatest number of

applicants you want that to be the
most concrete and most documented

step of the whole entire process.

And so that's the reason why we want to
talk about the paper trail and make sure

that there's a good paper trail in place.

Jenny Arnez: So when you say
paper trail, are you really

talking about defensibility?

Michael Callen: The paper trail is the
evidence that shows it is defensible.

So the defensibility is the
scrutiny of the paper trail.

But if you have a job posting
and people have reviewed that.

Somebody signed off on it.

That's documentation, that's
part of the paper trail.

If you have a job application,
and every year as a process, HR is

reviewing their application to make
sure that their application is asking

the things that should be asking and
not asking the things that doesn't,

then that's a part of the paper trail.

Hey, your application is bad.

We review it annually.

Okay.

That's documentation in your favor.

If you go through and you
have tests, are they valid and

consistent with business necessity?

Our tests can validated by a group
of subject matter experts in case of

content validation in virtually the same
amount of time as it takes one applicant

to go through and take those tests.

There's a couple of survey items.

It takes a few more minutes, but
essentially they go through that process.

You choose a select hand.

Chosen pool of subject matter experts
that are good performers on the job.

You ask them to go through and take
these tests in validation mode.

They take the test, they
answer the survey, and the

validation report is delivered.

And that's a really great bit
of paper for the paper trail.

Somebody says I don't
think that test was valid.

Email 'em a copy of the validation report.

Here's our validation report.

You don't

think it was valid?

Here's 35 pages of
documentation that shows why.

And in the instances where we've
been asked for something like

that by or a client will ask us,
Hey, this is being challenged.

What should we do?

And I say, send off the plaintiff's
attorney a copy of the validation report

and they send it off to 'em and we
don't ever hear back from 'em again.

It just evaporates because you can
say, I don't think it's valid, but

here's 35 pages that say otherwise.

So having this paper trail in place
and especially not having some sort of

bottleneck that somebody experiences
that doesn't have a paper trail to

justify it, wherein x percentage of
the people are screened out and y

percentage of the people continue
forward is a valuable situation to have.

What allows you to support your
defensibility of the hiring process.

Jenny Arnez: So we're talking about
responding to the comment that we

hear it sometimes at trade shows.

Yeah, we don't test.

And I'm wondering, Mike, do people ever
express to you, yeah, we don't test

because you've already talked about
validity, it's not valid, but do we, do

they ever say, we don't test because it's
too time consuming or it's too expensive?

how do you respond to those comments?

Michael Callen: Yeah, they do
definitely say that one of the most

frustrating things in our particular

realm is to be talking to
somebody about this process.

Especially for instance, our process
where you're able to test people at home

in their bunny slippers in the evening
rather than having to call them in.

So your staff is not involved in
the testing process other than

setting the testing process up.

And so when we're talking to somebody
who could be using this process to

their benefit, and they say to us, I
just don't have time to look at this

right now because I'm busy recruiting
people that aren't gonna stick because

I don't know whether they're skilled
and able, it's very frustrating for us.

We're always trying to help people
understand that the process is

automating things that human
beings would be doing otherwise.

And so there is a valid concern
to say adding testing, may slow

down the recruitment process just
enough that we'll lose somebody who

otherwise would've been a good hire.

And it's important for us to hire people.

But the flip side of that is if you're
hiring the wrong people and you're

turning them over, you're hiring the
wrong people and you're having to

recruit people using a bad, broken
process to replace the person that

you didn't get right to begin with.

And again, being able to test people in
their bunny slippers is a really important

aspect of a recruitment because you get
an applicant in, as soon as somebody says

this is a qualified applicant, you send
them a test link probably before you could

have scheduled them for a phone interview.

You can have them test and you
can determine whether or not they

would be subject to or should be
subject to a telephone interview.

What was the second aspect
of that you asked about?

Jenny Arnez: Money on
the financial investment.

Michael Callen: Yeah.

Jenny Arnez: Is there a benefit
financially to implementing testing?

Michael Callen: Absolutely.

Positively.

The main benefit is in going through
the process and avoiding hiring

somebody who doesn't work out.

And, there's a hard cost to
that recruitment process.

There's a hard cost to the onboarding.

There's a hard cost to the training.

But maybe the hardest, most challenging
cost is regarding the chemistry of the

workers that you put that person into.

It's gonna take, what, two, three
weeks, a month before somebody

realizes, okay, we've got 'em all
trained up and they can't do the job.

The effect upon the chemistry
and the engagement of your

existing employees is palpable.

And you want to avoid that at all costs.

These people are the people
who are there for you.

They're the people who are working
there for you, and you want to

hire people to help them out.

It's not a concrete number of dollars,
but what one of our reps, Nick Brown

will say, at the conferences, when
somebody comes up and asks, what is it?

have you ever received a

resume from somebody who says they have
experience using Excel, and then when

they sit down to use Excel, they're
putting numbers in the cells and

pulling out a calculator to sum them
because they don't know that Excel has

functions that add those up for you?

Everybody laughs but then they
all say, yes, I know that person.

I've run into that person before.

And so you want to encounter
that situation ahead of time.

You don't want to encounter that
situation at the end of the process.

So very important.

Jenny Arnez: Okay.

So I'm looking back, thinking
back of our conversation, what you

shared over the last several minutes
and from an employer standpoint,

testing helps to maximize
my people's time.

Michael Callen: absolutely.

Jenny Arnez: We get the right
people in the interview.

Michael Callen: Let me
say and effectiveness.

Jenny Arnez: And effectiveness, yeah.

Michael Callen: Because it's
not just the time, it's the

time times the effectiveness

Jenny Arnez: So it helps maximize and
help our people's time, helps them to be

more effective, maximize effectiveness.

Also, you've talked about the financial-
you hire and then you keep your people.

You don't have to repost, re-interview
and start the process all over.

Ideally having testing in place,
valid testing in place helps

you to hire the right people,
have the best fit for the job.

Michael Callen: Yeah.

And again, it goes back to your
existing workforce as well.

That engagement and job satisfaction of
the people who are already trained up in

performing well on the job is really your
most important aspect of human resources.

So you want to protect those people
as best you can and make sure that

they are effective on the job and
that you're not doing anything

that makes their job more difficult

Jenny Arnez: Yeah.

And plus testing helps you
to have a valid process too.

Michael Callen: Yes.

a valid and consistent necessity with
business necessity is a technical

definition of the technical term valid.

But it doesn't mean that there
isn't, that you shouldn't consider

valid as a colloquial term as well.

You want to make sure that all of the
processes in your recruitment are valid.

That word valid comes from,
the root meaning true.

And, truth is the basis
of good human resources.

And yeah, absolutely, positively, you want
to make sure that all of that is in place.

Jenny Arnez: So as we
look at winding down.

Any summary comments or
statements you want to make, Mike?

Michael Callen: I guess really it just
comes back to the original question

is people really seriously should
be considering this testing issue.

If you're already doing testing then
you want to be thinking about all the

PT PPTs that are in place, and you want
to make sure that they are all valid

and consistent with business necessity.

Don't put an obstacle in the way
of your applicants that isn't a

valid obstacle, because that's
to everyone's mutual detriment.

To the people who come up to me at
conferences and say, we don't do

this because of A, B, C, or D reason.

I just highly recommend
that you reconsider that.

I think in light of the things that
we've discussed today, it would be

really hard for someone to maintain

that position as being valid.

Because, I don't think it really is.

That's my opinion.

You said a disclaimer right at the front.

But I think there's a lot of good concrete
reasons as to why that's the case.

Jenny Arnez: Thank you, Mike.

This has been very helpful as always,
and listener or viewer, if you ever have

any questions about any of our podcasts,
feel free to reach out to us here.

We have contact information on the
page where you're viewing this video

or listening to this video, and we sure
are grateful that you joined us today.

Michael Callen: Absolutely.

Thank you so much for your
time, and thank you, Jenny.

Jenny Arnez: Yeah.

Thank you.

Michael Callen: Bye-bye.

Narrator: Thanks for tuning
in to Testing, Testing 1-2-3.

Brought to you by TestGenius
and Biddle Consulting Group.

Visit our website at testgenius.com
for more information.