Welcome to Testing, Testing,
One, Two, Three, a podcast

brought to you by TestGenius.

Well, welcome everybody to
Testing, Testing, One, Two, Three.

We're back after a hiatus, and
we're ready to start a new season.

My name is Jenny Arnez.

I'm one of your hosts today.

Also with me is Mike Callen.

Mike is one of our hosts, and he's
also the president of TestGenius.

And today we're really excited
because we have a special guest.

We have Jocelyn King.

Jocelyn is the CEO and
founder of VirgilHR.

Welcome, Jocelyn.

Thank you, Jenny and Michael.

Thank you for having me.

Thanks for being here.

Yeah.

We're really glad you're here.

I want to start with a question
about the name VirgilHR.

Can you give us a little bit of
background about how you came up

with that name for your company?

Yes.

It's a, a very nerdy story, I must admit.

I was a philosophy major in college.

I did, a thesis on Dante's Divine
Comedies, like Dante's Inferno.

Okay.

And Virgil, who's a real life poet,
he wrote The Aeneid, for example.

He's a character in Dante's poem,
and he's this beacon of wisdom and

reason and rationality, and He guides
Dante through, Hell, up through

Purgatory and up toward Heaven.

And I just thought, you know what?

We do employment and labor law compliance.

It is a hellacious thing to go
through as an HR professional,

so why not be that guide?

I love that.

That's awesome.

I, had to look up, refresh
the story for me, and, nine

circles of Hell, is that right?

How it goes?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yep.

Yeah.

E- each one worse than the next.

Yep.

Wonderful.

Thank you.

What, what was the worst
for you in your HR career?

What, what circle did you occupy?

definitely employee relations.

We're definitely gonna go with that.

There are, quite a few investigations
that were really emotionally draining.

Yeah.

How, how many circles down was that?

Oh, gosh.

I would definitely say it's
maybe in the, six or seven- Yeah.

That's tough … range.

Yeah.

Yeah, there have been some
tough investigations to do.

Th- that'll make you,
start your own business.

It did.

It did.

Yeah.

So, we here at TestGenius, we're…

Our roots are, come from HR consulting.

and then we became, an HR software
company, and your roots are

boots-on-the-ground HR. And then,
you know, you transitioned into

a really successful, business.

Can you talk a little bit about what led
to your vision and inevitably what led to

you successfully executing that vision?

Oh, sure.

So, I've been in HR my whole career,
working predominantly for high-growth

tech companies, both big and small.

Although I dabbled a little bit
in retail as well, which is where

a lot of those ER issues came up.

Mm-hmm.

And, I was… Gosh, I was a director
of HR for a tech company maybe 10 or 12

years ago, and, it was the first role
where I had a multi-state workforce.

And that was incredibly challenging
because there are so many laws

that you have to comply with, and
they aren't just federal laws.

They're state- Mm-hmm … they're city,
they're county laws, as you well know.

And it was really hard tracking and
complying with all of these laws.

I even had an Excel sheet where I'd
get those SHRM emails that kinda notify

you when a law's changed, and I would
just fill out this Excel sheet and

live off of that, which wasn't very
scalable, I might add- especially

because we were in so many states.

But, yeah, I thought there's gotta
be a better way of doing this.

There's gotta be some tech
that can do it for us.

And I'd conceptualized in my head how that
tech would work, having worked at tech

companies, but was a little intimidated
about pulling the trigger, quitting my

job, not paying myself for a couple years.

I had a young family.

It just wasn't the time.

And, then, several years passed and I
was working for a very large technology

company where we grew from, myself,
I was the first hire there in North

America, to about 1,000 people in six
to nine months- Mm … something like

that, all across the US and Canada.

And again, so hard tracking
and complying with these laws.

So a couple years later, I
quit my job, started Virgil.

This is now almost five years ago
at this point, and, started working

with an engineering team offshore
that built the first version of the

product, and still to this day continues
to build the product for us- Mm

and had conceptualized what gen
AI would look like, at the time,

five years ago, before it was
really the way that it is now.

A thing?

Yeah.

Yes.

And so we built the first prototype
of the chatbot and, Mm … and

then continued growing from there.

So it's been really fun.

Fantastic.

Amazing.

As you, work with other HR professionals
through VirgilHR providing guidance,

what are some of the biggest
compliance issues that you find

that people are just unaware of?

Oh, gosh.

well, I think, the fact that
state and local laws can be more

restrictive than federal laws.

You know, many employers will build
policies around federal requirements, but

they don't always realize that a state
or a city might have stricter rules for

things like leave or pay or scheduling.

I think another area is job descriptions.

They can create compliance problems.

Outdated job descriptions might not always
accurately reflect essential functions,

and that can create issues with hiring
and accommodations and classification.

And speaking of classification, I'd
argue that's another one, right?

Independent contractors
aren't- Yeah … necessarily

independent contractors, right?

Mm-hmm.

Worker classification's often
misunderstood, particularly as

companies use freelancers or
consultants or gig workers, or even

remote workers across multiple states.

Are there any compliance
mistakes that surprise you?

yes.

I'd say the biggest surprise is often how
frequently compliance problems come from

inconsistency rather than bad intent.

Mm-hmm.

You know, I talk a lot about the fact
that, that company that's getting

sued likely, not in all cases,
but likely didn't have bad intent.

There's probably inconsistently at play
with the way that they were practicing.

So, a manager makes an exception,
a recruiter uses a different hiring

criterion, or an HR team applies a
policy differently across locations, and

suddenly you have a compliance issue.

Hmm.

Now, you mentioned, how laws are
changing and how often they're

the most restrict- restrictive
at the city and the local levels.

because the employment laws are
constantly changing at city, state,

federal, h- how does your team keep up?

Oh, gosh.

We do it in a variety of ways.

We use a couple of really large
legal databases to keep up.

Mm-hmm.

and we also use, things
like state websites.

Our team will actually call, state
offices and request clarification

on new laws that have been released.

Hmm.

So it's really burdensome, but we have
figured a scalable way of doing it.

Oh.

D- do you, drill down to the city level?

I know city's come up a couple times.

but do you drill down that far in
terms of the advice that you're giving?

Yes.

We cover about 8,000
localities across the US.

Wow.

Mm-hmm.

Amazing.

Are there particular industries
that you specialize in?

I think that's happened
organically just with time.

Uh, healthcare, construction,
manufacturing, staffing,

professional services.

So we have some that are in that
really kind of high risk, arena,

and, others in the professional

services space that, generally,

they're not coming from that high risk
area, but they might actually have a lot

of remote workers, for example, so they're
a complex multi-state organization.

you had mentioned essential
functions earlier, and I was curious.

That comes up a lot in terms of ADA
accommodation and physical ability

testing a lot, which we don't do a lot
of, but one of our sister companies does.

is there anything that VirgilHR does to
help people to understand about essential

functions, to be able to differentiate
between essential and non-essential,

or is that something that you give
guidance on, or h- how does that come

into play on your side, if it does?

Yeah.

So we do have an AI job
description builder that helps

with a lot of those requirements.

Mm. and then we also provide a lot
of guidance on ADA, accommodations.

So, we have our chat bot, for
example, where you can say, "Hey,

I've got this employee requesting
an accommodation in Tennessee.

What do I do?" And it covers not just
the federal ADA requirements that

you have to meet, and it even walks
them through the interactive process

and how that works, and questions
you should ask, and stuff like that.

We have forms and all that good stuff
too, so you can really practice this.

That's great.

But we also cover any, laws at a state or
local level that are going to be relevant

to what you're working on again, as
well from an accommodation perspective.

Excellent.

Mm-hmm.

With all the big changes in the EEO, Equal
Employment Opportunity space, how has this

affected your business and what you do?

it's affected us in the sense that we've
had to be very diligent about tracking all

of these changes that are occurring and
really helping our customers understand

the impact and what it means to them.

I think that employers really shouldn't
mistake reduced federal enforcement

for reduced discrimination risk.

So Title VII and state and
local laws, they still apply.

So HR leaders really need to navigate
an increasingly fragmented compliance

landscape, particularly around areas like
hiring, selection, compensation, and AI.

So, we do a lot of that education
through our platform and, I know it's

been quite helpful and successful for
a lot of HR professionals using it.

I'm really glad to hear you say that
because I'm really in the middle

of the road on this one and, there,
there's so many great aspects of EEO

and that it just seems like there's
been this throw the baby out with

the bathwater feeling about it.

Uh, but to me, at the end of the day on
the testing side of things, and if you

have a bad test and it's not valid, a
plaintiff's attorney can come after you,

and you've got to be able to explain why
you did what, when, where, why, and how.

And so I think it's r-
it's really important.

we have seen a lot, however, of
organizations who have, gone so far

as to dismantle aspects of compliance,
and that's gonna make it hard for you

folks because you're trying to, e-
adequately keep the foot on the gas and

step on the brakes at the same time.

Uh, is that something that you've
had to consciously try to balance?

Well, you know, it's a
really great question.

I'd say it's less about balance
and again, more about just

education on the facts, right?

We've seen, as you said, some companies
dismantle these, these types of

programs, and in some cases it's
because they really had to with the

change in, in, our landscape today.

In other cases, it's just because they're
scared and they don't know what to do.

Right.

So that's where we come in, is
really helping them understand what's

at risk for you and what isn't.

so in addition to the chat bot, we also
have the ability for our customers to

speak to someone on our legal team, and
they've done a phenomenal job of really

helping people understand where that risk

is- Hmm

and what their risk tolerance, We're not
telling them what their risk tolerance

should look like so much as just giving
them options of what that could look like.

Yeah.

People like you and I, Jocelyn, we've
been around for a couple decades.

We've seen the pendulums just swing back
and forth on different hot topics and,

and this one right here really feels
like, there's a foreswing and there's

gonna be a backswing that's gonna come.

Mm-hmm.

And the more that people dismantle
the knowledge that they have in place

and of course the staff that they have
in place, that they stop counting, I

just feel like the, people are setting
themselves up for a, a real big issue.

I, I don't know, do you th- think
about that strategically in terms

of, how do you try to ad- advise
people, to not undercut their

own, strategic protection activities,
or is there any way that you

get involved in that or that
factors into the decision-making

or the content that you put out?

No, we don't get involved with
that too much because we're very

careful about where we draw the
line between guidance and advice.

Mm. Mm. and we don't provide any
type of legal advice to- Okay

our customers.

It's all general guidance.

So again, what we're offering is
something that's really informational in

nature, and relatively neutral as well.

I see.

Thank you.

Yeah.

TestGenius is in the pre-employment
testing space, and I'm just curious,

do you get questions from employers
about pre-employment testing?

We do.

We actually… we do get a little bit of
questions about pre-employment testing.

We get more questions around
background checks, which is something

totally different of course.

but pre-employment testing, really
where we're getting questions is around

discrimination- Mm … and discriminatory
risk that they need to be aware of.

less so from our bot, more
so from questions that are

asked to our legal team.

Mm. But we do provide a lot of really
helpful information to help them better

understand, where that risk might be.

Right.

Right.

So let's pivot for just a
second and talk again about AI.

actually, AI is the topic
these days, isn't it?

It is.

So, our approach is that we use AI as a, a
tool to augment and not to replace humans.

Mm-hmm.

And I kinda sense that, that you have
that same philosophy with your AI chatbot.

It's c- it's a, an extension
of being Virgil, right?

to, as a guide.

can you talk more about
how your software helps?

Absolutely.

Yeah.

So we have a variety of
features within our software.

We have the chatbot, we have legal
updates, the ability to speak to an

attorney, employee, our employee handbook
builder, multi-state comparison tool.

There's a lot there.

and we use AI in our chatbot to
really help, as you said, augment

the day-to-day work they're doing.

Something that drove me really nuts,
as an HR professional is I'd have

something come up, like first time I'm
terminating somebody in California,

and I'm going on Google, I'm reading
through articles, I'm reading Wikipedia.

Is this article most up to date?

Who wrote it?

Is it even accurate?

Has something passed since
this article was written?

There's a lot there, and there's a lack of
confidence, in, in making that decision.

And as an HR professional, that's really
scary because you are, left to make

that decision in many cases without
getting legal advice, and you're held

to it, which is really uncomfortable.

So what we're here to do is provide
a tool that's going to surface that

information to the top so you get
it really quickly, but also provide

information where our database is
actually fully built by our in-house

employment and labor law attorneys.

Mm-hmm.

So all the content that was developed,
all the content that's maintained on a

day-to-day basis is with our legal team.

And so you can feel rest assured
that when you're getting information

within our platform, it's going to be
accurate and it's going to be attorney

backed, really attorney developed.

so I think that sense of confidence
makes it a whole lot easier for HR-

Mm-hmm … to move forward and do
their job, and just feel good about

the decisions that they're making.

But we aren't here to replace
that compliance specialist.

We're here to make their job a
whole lot easier and help them be

a whole lot more accurate in the
decisions that they're making.

it often isn't bad intent, it's bad
practices that get companies into trouble.

and so that's what we're
looking to eliminate.

Oh, outstanding.

does your tool, provide
a citation, a source?

Yes, it does.

So we provide, citations with a
hyperlink that goes directly back to the

original legislation that we're using,
when we're developing that content.

so it's all very robust.

we also do link tracking on the back end,
so if these links expire- Mm-hmm we fix

those as well to make sure that you always
have the most up-to-date information.

Great.

Yeah, that's fantastic.

Mm-hmm.

Well- Yeah, it's not always perfect.

Sometimes, we'll miss
a link here or there,

but we- Sure

catch it pretty quickly.

Sure, sure.

It's nice to be able to click
that link and, find the source and

find that it is actually there.

So it's, Yes, it's a very
relieving feeling … encouraging.

Yeah.

It is.

Yes.

in, in my role a- as a leader of a small
organization, one of the greatest points

of stress that I have comes from, a fear
that the people aren't on, all on the

same page and heading the same direction.

And I was perusing your website and
I noticed that you have a section

that's entitled, Standardization
and Simplification of HR Workflows.

Mm-hmm.

And that really resonated with me, the
whole standardization and simplica-

simplification, both Can you talk a little
bit how important this, these two aspects

are, and how is it that Virgil helps
out with these really important aspects?

Yes, absolutely.

So from a simplification perspective,
we're taking what can sometimes be complex

information that you'd find in a piece of
legislation, and summarizing it in a more

palatable way for our day-to-day reader.

And it's written not just for the HR
professional in mind, but even for

the business owner in mind as well.

So you don't have to be an HR expert to
leverage the data that we're providing.

Then from a standardization perspective,
we've talked a little bit about this

when it comes to maintaining consistency.

That's really important to make sure
that you're consistent- consistently

practicing, uh, compliance processes
and procedures in the right way.

and that when you can document
it, and you can show that level of

consistency and standardization really
helps you in things like lawsuits.

Absolutely.

but an example of the way that it
would work- Hey … is if I were

to go back to that termination in
California, I would, engage with bot

and, say, "Hey, I've got an employee
in California that I'm terminating.

What do I do?" And it takes you
through full workflow, step-by-step

instructions on everything you
need to do to be compliant with

each of those applicable laws.

Hmm.

And it's applicable laws to that
specific employee, not just generically.

So if you were to go on ChatGPT, for
example, and ask the same question,

it'll give you a generic response
on what one might do, uh, for a

random person.

But what we're doing is saying, "Oh,
this person is in LA County, and

there's-" Hmm … "this very specific
form that needs to be provided." Right.

"So we're also going to include that
form as part of the workflow as well."

that's really interesting.

I know there, there are instances where
the workflow might include some aspects

like, say for instance, they haven't
properly documented, incidents that have

occurred that have led up to this point.

th- does this… I would imagine that's
a really important part of the software.

Before you jump in there and you
get on the phone with somebody,

you get your ducks in a row.

Yeah.

and that's why you'd go
through these workflows.

It's very unique compared
to other chatbots out there.

Other chatbots aren't asking these types
of detailed questions about an employee.

Like for example, if you were asking
about maternity leave requirements in

Washington State, we're asking or we're
pulling from your HRIS, depending on

whether there's an integration, how
many employees does the company have?

Is it over 50 employees?

are there at least 50 employees within
a 75-mile radius of this employee?

have they worked at least 1,250 hours?

those types of questions to identify
whether or not FMLA is even relevant to

this specific employee to begin with.

Wow.

How we doing on time, Jenny?

I think we're doing great.

I think we should just keep going.

I, we're on a roll here.

Okay.

Yeah.

All right.

Thank you.

Jocelyn, you game?

Yeah, absolutely.

All right.

Excellent.

Another, benefit that you folks feature
on your website is supporting confident

people decisions, and that's what we're
all about, specifically and solely

on the recruitment side of things.

but people decisions are made
continuously through the employee journey.

Can you speak a little bit
about how VirgilHR also supports

confident people decisions?

Yeah.

So much of this revolves around
our data, and the fact that our

data is very clean, and it's been,
again, developed and maintained

by labor and employment attorneys.

And it's something where we're
not just covering federal, right?

We're covering, states, we're covering
cities, we're covering counties, and

we're covering thousands of them.

So, if you have an employee in
San Francisco that's requesting

parental leave, and you generically
ask a question, "Hey, I've got this

employee in California, what do I do?"
we're asking questions to determine

whether PPLO is something that's
gonna be relevant to this individual.

And once we've done that, and we've
identified what laws are applicable

to the individual, how good does that
feel as an HR practitioner to feel that

sense of confidence in the decision
that they're going to make because

they're empowered with all of that
information, and all the tools that

they need, like the forms, for example.

This may- may be a little specific,
hopefully not too specific in terms of

strategically, where you're thinking.

But, again, in my role, I'm- I'm
constantly thinking, "What can we do

with the product that we have?" It
seems as though right now, VirgilHR

kind of exists as a silo within a
person's workspace, and it's not

literally connected with the data.

But do you ever dream about, what if
it were connected, and you're able

to ask about Susan Smith in Paducah?

and rather than having to provide that
information that, maybe it's, it's merged

with an HRIS or an HRMS, and it- Virgil
knows who we're talking about and maybe

can reach out into different areas within
the HRMS and gather internal information

and mix it with, that might be a little
bit, too much, 2001: A Space Odyssey.

But, but do you ever think about
things like that, aspects like that?

Yes.

So we actually already do that.

Oh, okay.

We have the capabilities
of doing that today.

Um-

So I didn't invent that?

No.

It's… I'm sorry to say you didn't, no.

yeah, so for example, I… We actually
built this out about four years ago

and we, experimented with an HRIS, a-

sandbox, for example- Mm-hmm where
we were able to identify what

the user was doing in the system.

Oh, they're looking at a leave request.

whose leave request they're looking
at, what that person's start

date is, so it'll know, has, have
they been with the organization

at least 12 months, for example.

pull the location.

How many employees are in that
location across the organization?

Those types of things, so that
we don't even have to ask some

of those questions with our bot.

Right.

It automatically knows, okay,
this person's qualified for X,

Y, and Z. So we do that today.

That's great

… what we are focused on right
now from a strategic perspective

is being more agentic.

and I don't wanna talk too much
about that quite yet- Okay … 'cause

we're not ready for it.

But, the idea here really is how can we
automate compliance- Sure as, proficiently

and seamlessly as possible for our users.

Yeah, the- there's a whole host of,
aspects where now all of a sudden

the bot is saying, "Oh, by the way,
take a look at this or take a look at

that," and proactively helping people
i- in- into a state of compliance.

So that's exciting.

We'll look forward to having you
on in a couple years and talking a

little bit more about the, uh, which
I presume you'll call it the Mike

Callen function, 'cause I Oh, that's-

But that's exciting.

That's, that's, that's neat.

That's really great technology.

Thank you.

Yeah, something I'm really excited
about with this is it's very proactive.

So compliance is traditionally
reactive, unfortunately.

Right.

so this really allows
users to be proactive.

They don't even have to know a law exists
when they're working on something- Yeah

to get that prompt from the chatbot.

Right.

Right.

Yeah, that, that's, Yeah.

You c- you can start to see taglines
on your website right now, featuring

that, that word proactive because
yeah, everybody… Everything right

now is just you're dragging everything
through the process, and this is- Mm-hmm

actually going out and, and getting them.

So that's exciting.

Very, very cool stuff.

let's see.

uh, are there any questions that, you
would have hoped that we would ask or

that have, occurred in your brain that,
just, I'd really like to chat about this?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

you were very thorough.

You covered quite a bit.

so I appreciate that, and what I really
appreciated was you going beyond what

we're doing today and, talking, a bit
more about what we're doing tomorrow,

there are a lot of really exciting things
that many vendors are working on today.

and so for us it's all about
how do we differentiate

ourselves in the market- Yeah

because- Yeah … AI has made it
so much easier to meet competitor

parity, in, in a pretty quick fashion.

And so how- Yeah … you keep that
competitive advantage and that

differentiation is really important.

Isn't it incredible to be at a place
like SHRM where you can have six or

seven football fields full of vendors
and just walk the aisles and find

organizations that are doing things
that you never thought of before,

or that might be tangential to what
you're doing but not truly competitive?

Mm-hmm.

I just marvel at that, and I think
that's one of the great things about

being able to, to assemble as 26,000
people in, in one building is, to be able

to experience those, kinds of things.

I don't know- It's really
cool … if that was really the

question, and I'm sure- Let me know.

Yeah.

it's, it's very cool.

And before I started the company, I would
go to those conferences just to walk

the expo floor- Oh, wow … because I
loved learning about the new technologies

that were coming out, the new features,
capabilities, the new companies.

and they're popping up left, right,
and center, which is really cool

because it demands innovation
across the rest of the- Right

competitive landscape, which is
really- Yeah … really important.

Yeah.

and we've been quite fortunate
because in going to those events,

we've met a lot of partners.

and actually, I don't know if
we met you all at SHRM or not.

At one-

Well, we did connect at SHRM,
but we had met ahead of that.

So it was a scheduled, meeting.

Yes.

And and exactly.

It's like the perfect way of being
able to meet- Mm potential partners

in the space and just learning
more about what everybody's doing.

I would- Yeah … highly encourage any
HR practitioner to spend quite a bit of

time on the expo floor because regardless
of whether or not you're in a position to

buy, it's going to teach you something.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Mm. we go to the, these, so many…
we're doing 46 conferences this

year, which is almost double-
Wow … what we've done in the past.

And, we're road weary, but most of
them are really great experiences.

Sometimes we're at a conference and we
don't have good engagement at the booth.

And it's always so sad to me because,
the point that you make about

encouraging people to go and talk,
I, my point is, talk to the people

who are literally underwriting your
educational experience, and find out

who is- doing so and who isn't doing so.

And maybe some of the people
that you as a, an employer are

supporting aren't supporting you,
and then their competitors are.

But yeah, go walk the aisles
and talk to us because we're not

there to sell anybody anything.

We're not gonna close any
business in the 15 seconds that

you're standing in our booth.

We're just there, to exchange
information and share ideas.

So I'm really glad that
you brought that up.

I wish every practitioner who was now
working in the space where you used to

work, would really internalize that.

That would be really
helpful for all of us.

Yeah, and it really helps you when you're
working through different, projects that

you're focused on and you're trying to
figure out how can we be as streamlined

as possible, as lean as possible- Right

as innovative as possible.

How are you going to know unless you
go talk to some of these vendors?

Mm-hmm.

You can do the research online, sure.

Yeah.

but you might miss out on some of the
smaller companies that can't afford

the same, you know, advertising
budget that the bigger ones can.

That's a good point.

And some of those small companies
might be a better fit for you for

a number of reasons, whether it's
price or innovation or anything else.

and even service types.

before Jeremiah from your organization
reached out to me to have a

conversation, I didn't know who your
company was, and I didn't know of that

particular aspect of service type.

and so unless you go and you stop in
front of somebody's booth and say, tell

me a little bit about what it is that you
do," I for one wouldn't have known that

there was a service like VirgilHR's to
help people with these compliance issues,

and especially to help people a- in an
arena as, that gets as complicated as it

gets because of the geographic diversity.

But any rate, yeah, good food for thought.

Hopefully- … people listen
and, take this seriously.

Jocelyn, if somebody is entering the
HR field, as a career choice for the

first time, what, what kind of advice
would you give them as they get started?

Oh, gosh.

I'd say don't just learn
how to administer HR.

Learn how to understand the why
behind the rules and the business.

the best HR professionals know the
law, they understand the technology,

and can translate both into, really
practical decisions that help the

business and protect its people.

never assume that because we've always
done it this way is still the right way.

Hmm.

Very good.

It has been an absolute pleasure
to have you on our podcast today,

and I just wanna say that what
you're building is brilliant.

Mm-hmm.

And it's really… I can just
see the need that it is filling.

And, Thank you truly a wise guide, as
people work through their HR struggles.

Thank you.

That's what we're hoping for.

And I really appreciate all
the thoughtful questions, too.

thank you.

So if, if-

We just used a bot.

If, if-

I'm kidding.

I'm kidding

… yeah.

if someone wants to know more about
VirgilHR, how… what's the best place?

What should they do?

They can go to our website, VirgilHR.com,
or they can reach out to me on LinkedIn.

Perfect.

All right.

Any closing comments, Mike?

No, just tha- thanks for being here.

It's really great to chat with you.

We got the chance to chat with you
shortly beforehand, and, obviously

we've been in discussions with some of
the people that work for you, and it's

been really great experience so far.

But we do really appreciate you
coming on board, and, this is

iron sharpens iron territory.

the more that we can do to put, in, in the
pathway of people that are operating in

the space that we're wo- we're operating
in, good i- good quality information

and, we can help them head the right
direction and do things more effectively

and efficiently, it's a win-win.

And so I, I feel like this is, been
a really profitable opportunity

for us, and hopefully everybody
will, will, appreciate it as well.

So thank you very much for your time.

Yeah.

Thank you.

All right.

Thank you both.

All right.

Thanks.

Until next time.

Take care.