Testing, Testing 1-2-3

Welcome to Testing, Testing 1, 2, 3, a
podcast brought to you by TestGenius.

Welcome back to Testing, Testing 1, 2, 3.

My name is Jenny.

I'm one of your hosts today,
and with me is Mike Callen.

Mike is the president of
TestGenius and our co-host.

Mike, you wanna say hi?

Hello, everyone.

And with us is Ian Bellais.

Ian is the executive vice president
of strategy, man, that is a mouthful-

Yeah … from Verified First.

Yeah.

Ian, welcome.

We're sure glad you joined us today.

No, thank you very much.

I appreciate it.

Yeah.

Title like that, I hope you
get paid by the letter, buddy.

I tried to make my title longer.

They won't let me yet.

But, you know, I'm gonna
give it another shot.

C-

business cards aren't big enough.

It's great to have you here, Ian.

Yeah.

I- Ian, why don't you tell us a little
bit about who you are and Verified First?

So, as has already been
stated, I'm the executive VP

of strategy at Verified First.

Um, uh, I've been with Verified First,
in November it'll be 10 years actually.

Wow.

And, uh, I really started with Verified
First developing their partner channel

program, and since then I've gone on
to lead marketing and sales as well.

Uh, but now I'm really focused
on strategy, around partnerships,

and new vendors and products.

So you know, I still get involved
with specific partners, like Biddle.

We think you guys are great, and
we're excited to work with you.

So and then Verified First is a
background screening company that,

you know, does background screening,
verifications, drug screening, I-9.

We're about to launch a WOTC solution.

So really anything that has to do-

What's that?

WOTC?

Yeah.

That's federal and state
credits for employment.

So basically, companies get federal
and state credits for all sorts of

different reasons when they hire.

So we're launching a solution
that helps them manage that and

gain as many credits as they can.

Interesting.

But it's really anything to
do with recruitment, kind of

right before onboarding space
that we get involved with.

Okay.

So how did you get connected with
background screening and Verified First?

H- what's the story there?

Well, it wasn't on purpose.

Uh, I really have a technology
background, and, um, I've known the

owner of Verified First for a while
now, probably since- Gosh, I think

since 2008, I think I've known Devin.

And he just asked me one day if I'd be
interested in working for his background

screening company and in Boise, Idaho.

Um, I was in the Phoenix, Arizona
area at the time, and I don't know,

I'd never thought about it, uh,
about doing something like that.

He convinced me to go to
Boise and take a look.

One, I fell in love with the
city, and I kind of fell in love

with their software solution.

Mm. And just saw a lot of possibilities
there, so I decided to go ahead and

do it and- Long story short, moved
to Boise and been here ever since.

That's awesome.

And that's been 10 years?

Sometimes a- Yeah … a great
plan is no plan at all, right?

Yeah.

Well, you know, sometimes the best
things ha- come out of nowhere.

You never know.

Absolutely.

You started to mention about recruitment.

Where is the background
checking's place in recruitment?

Well, it depends on what you're doing, and
it depends on which solution you're using.

Um, you know, we have a, a ID
verification solution that could

come earlier than the background- Mm

screen.

For the most part, background screens take
place after the offer letter goes out.

Okay.

That's the safest time to do that,
and w- we can get in for, like,

all sorts of reasons for that.

But basically, you wanna get through
most of the recruitment process

before you do a background screen.

Okay.

So and then you mentioned ID verification.

Why don't you touch on that for a minute?

Talk about what that is.

Well, um, ID verification is becoming
actually more and more critical.

L- a lot because- Mm … of
what's happening out in the

market with AI, for example.

But it's become more critical
that you verify who the

person is that you're hiring.

And it did

Like, you wanna make sure Ian is Ian.

And this is especially critical in
a lot of spaces that we're involved

with, like for example, transportation.

Mm-hmm.

Um, it's really important to know
that the driver, for example, that

you're hiring is actually that
person, and that's their license.

So ID verification's
becoming a critical part.

It's something you wanna do really
right before the background screen.

So with a lot of our customers now, we
will do the ID verification sort of as

an entryway into the background screen.

And if Ian is who Ian says he is,
then we'll move forward, and we'll

background screen that person.

It's a way of ensuring you're not
wasting money on screening somebody

that's given you a false ID-

Mm-hmm

or false identification.

Why do that?

Right.

If they're not who they say they are, then
you know that you shouldn't move forward.

L- last time I got a job was 1994.

Yeah.

And, uh, I remember when you
got hired, you had to come in

with your Social Security card.

Right.

Mm-hmm.

And I know you have I-9s
now and these forms.

So do you guys actually automate
that process so that HR doesn't

need to get those copies any longer,
and then you archive them for them?

Or how does that work?

Oh, yeah, we've come
a long way since then.

I still have my … By the way, I
still have my Social Security card

from back in, I don't know when
I got it, back in the '70s- Yeah

or whenever that happened.

I was 13 when I got mine.

Yeah.

I haven't had to show that thing
in decades, but, uh, 'cause you

don't really need to anymore.

We have solutions now that can trace the
Social Security number and i- identify

the person based on the Social Security
number, and show that it's actually

that person's Social Security number.

That's great.

Presenting the card really
isn't the thing now.

It's really going to the database
and making sure, like, my Social

Security number is the one I gave you.

Got it.

So everything's done with technology
these days rather than, uh, on paper.

Yeah.

Yeah, sure.

So what does a good background
screen actually include?

So it's gonna depend on a lot of things.

I mean, we do… Just to give you, just
so you know what you're asking here,

um, Verified First has hundreds and
hundreds of different screens and tests.

It, it's a really long list.

There, there's no way I could
go through all of them in one

setting with you guys today.

But in general, you know, we provide
criminal history, sex offender, social

security traces, employment verifications,
education verifications, federal screens,

drug screens, international screens.

And the best one to choose is
really gonna be based on the role-

Mm

…
that you're hiring for.

So, you know, just to keep it simple
I guess, like, uh, someone you're

hiring at Domino's, let's say,
to deliver pizzas, you know, the,

it's not gonna be as stringent.

That's not to say it's not a good
background screen, but in those cases

you're probably gonna do a criminal
history, sex offender, social security

trace, and then a, a, a county search.

Those are the four basic ones
that you always wanna do.

But if you're hiring, like, an executive
or someone involved in security,

you're gonna wanna go deeper than that.

You wanna go to the federal level.

You might wanna do credit checks.

You might wanna do ongoing criminal
monitoring for those kinds of folks-

Mm-hmm … in those kinds of roles.

Mm-hmm.

Things like that.

So it's typically for more critical
roles you're gonna add different

kinds of searches that really dive
deeper into that person's background.

You know, including things like education
and, and employment history becomes very

important with those kinds of roles.

So y- you kind of answered, you're
such a good guest, you kind of answered

my next question, which really had
to do with different sort of tiers.

Obviously there's different tiers
of service that you'd be offering-

Uh-huh

depending on, like you said,
the types of positions.

But tell us a little bit about who, what
kinds of employers should con- consider

implementing background checks and why?

Really every employer should do it.

I think when most people think about
background screens, they're kind of

thinking, "Well, I wanna see if this
person has a criminal history, and if

they do, maybe I don't wanna hire them."

But it's really more than that.

I mean, you're protecting the company,
you're protecting your investors, you're

protecting your employees, and because
you wanna make sure that the people

that you hire are who they say they are.

Mm.

You know?

And-

Yeah

…
when organizations make hiring
mistakes, the impact on that is

way beyond just the company itself.

It could hurt culture.

It, it could create a lack of
trust within the organization.

Right.

It can do all sorts of things that
really employers don't wanna happen.

So I think it's way more critical
than people really think about.

I don't look at it from a point of
view of saying, "Well, if I'm just

hiring someone for this frontline job,
I shouldn't background screen them.

It's not a big deal."
It, it is a big deal.

You know, the people that work with
that person wanna know that you've hired

people that are safe and good people.

L- let's say you hired somebody
four years ago, and now you're gonna

promote them into a different position.

Yeah.

Do you recommend running a background
screening on that person, or screening

them for some things, or, you know,
are you conc- people, should they be

concerned with what happened since, in
the four years that they were employed

Oh,

yeah.

You know, do you have to be con-

Yeah, for sure.

I have to do a background screen
every year on my work anniversary

Oh

So, you know-

Just, and just as a matter of procedure?

Yeah, as a matter of procedure.

It's just a thing that we do.

It's not a big deal.

I mean, I'm not going out breaking any
laws or robbing any banks or anything.

Right.

Not getting

caught.

But, you know, and it's not
because of my role either.

Actually, we do this for all
employees at Verified First.

I mean, we are a company that deals with
protected data and compliance, but there's

definitely types of roles, I think,
within an organization that you ought

to do ongoing background screens for.

Interesting.

Uh, or again, depending on the
role, ongoing drug screens.

Again, going back to transportation,
it is common for drivers to have random

drug screens all the time, to protect,
really to protect them, the equipment,

the company, the people on the road
that they're driving with, you know?

So there's a lot of good reasons
to do it, and you should do it.

That's great.

So you mentioned you have, you know,
maybe 100 different kinds of screens.

Uh, do you have, like, account managers,
or does your software help sort of

walk people through a process that
gives them an idea which things they

should use for a particular position?

Or how does one sort of navigate
their way through that part?

So it- it's actually
several hundreds of screens.

It's-

Oh, okay

…
yeah, so our, first of all, from the
very beginning, just from, uh, with our

sales team, they all are, are really
good at evaluating the prospect and the

customer So they're not just signing up,
signing them up to do business with us.

Th- they are looking at what roles
do you hire for, what states are you

hiring in, um, sometimes what counties
are you hiring in, and what's really

required for those types of roles.

We actually have a person that comes
in during the sale and sometimes right

after the sale to look for the gaps.

Ooh,

good.

Because, y- y- you know, nobody's perfect,
and information sometimes gets lost in

translation, and, and we wanna make sure,
um, that we're catching everything that

we need to catch, and we're protecting
our customers as much as we can.

That's good.

And then even during the onboarding
process, we'll go through the same

process with them and just make sure that
they've got everything that they need.

So, and then, yeah, we
do have account managers.

We have a large account management team,
and their job really is to make sure that

the customer's aware of updates, changes
in the law, uh, especially within the

states that they're doing business, what
they should be doing now that they weren't

doing, like, last year, and continuing to
make sure that the customer is protected.

A- as a former knucklehead, I, I of-
often think about, you know, what role

in this process should elapsed time play?

You know, if people have done something
15 or 20 years ago, obviously it's

dependent upon what it is, but,
uh, how do you advise people to

navigate that particular aspect?

I haven't done anything stupid- Yeah

for 20 years, but maybe 20 years
ago I made a mistake or whatever.

Do, do you give people
advice in that regard?

Well, I hope so, 'cause I was
an, I was a knucklehead myself.

Um-

Right.

I thought I recognized you.

It's funny, I just had a college reunion
this weekend, and we, of course, we were

all sitting around talking about, like,
what knuckleheads we were in college.

Yes.

But I'm really thankful that no
one pays attention to that now.

You know, the, it, a lot of it
is really depending on the law.

So- Mm … different states have
different requirements, so, but

the standard is 7 to 10 years.

A 7 to 10-year look-back.

Mm.

A- again, depending on the state.

The customer can also make that
decision from 7 to 10 years.

That's typically the standard when
you're thinking about elapsed time.

Now, going forward, though, uh,
although lately it seems like a

year goes b- by like that for me.

Yeah,

true.

A, a lot can happen in a year.

And, you know, companies
should remember that.

You know, the person- Right … that
you hired 12 months ago may not- Be

the same person that they are today

Yeah.

Yeah

So, and I hate to say it that way,
but it's just sort of reality.

Sure.

For most of us it's not a problem, right?

You know?

Where e- most people are, do what they're
supposed to do and how they're supposed

to do it, but you just never know

Right

Le- let's talk about compliance,
legal compliance for a second.

Especially for those HR folks who
are listening who maybe aren't

familiar with what the law is.

Mm-hmm.

What are the basic legal rules
an employer needs to know about

when running a background screen
or even an ID verification?

Um, wow, that's, there's a lot there, um,
from a legal perspective Every background

screening company, technically it's, we're
CRAs, we're consumer reporting agencies.

Mm-hmm.

And we have to follow the
regulations set by the FCRA.

So there's a lot of laws around, there,
there's, there's federal laws and

state laws that you need to be aware of
when you're doing background screens.

And we might get into some of
this in more detail down the

road here, I think maybe later.

But, you know, there's ban the
box rules, there's, um, E- E-

OC- I'm gonna get it wrong.

EOCC regulations and federal-

EEOC.

Yeah, EEOC, there you go.

So there's different things you need to be
aware of as an employer, but in general,

in general, you wanna make sure that, uh,
you're screening the same role, everyone

who applies for a role, that you're
screening them in the exact same way.

Hmm.

Right.

Yeah.

Right?

Same thing with testing on our side.

Right.

Exactly.

You don't wanna show any
bias or waiver from that.

Like, if I apply for role X, and Jenny,
you apply for role X, the same exact

background screen should take place,
whatever that company's deciding to do.

So we do things to protect companies
from making these kinds of changes

by packaging up a list of different
types of screens into one package

for a specific role to make sure that
the deviation doesn't take place.

Hmm.

And the risk gets larger as companies
are bigger because, whereas in a

small company you might have one
recruiter, for example, and they know

what they're doing with each role.

Yeah.

In larger companies, when you have
20 recruiters, 30 recruiters, 100

recruiters, that it gets more complicated.

So, so you really wanna provide a
framework for them that ensures that

they're not showing any bias or making
any changes from role to role when

they're doing the background screens.

Um-

S- Does your… Oh, sorry, go ahead.

No, go ahead.

I was just gonna ask you
a follow-up question.

So you had mentioned obviously
federal and then there's state.

Does your software need to know,
for instance, what state a person

is in and then give them different
notices and notifications?

Mm-hmm.

Or maybe even administer
things differently?

So it needs to really be intelligent
and be aware of who they are, right?

Yeah.

One of the requirements is
a minimum getting the home

address of the, the candidate.

And then knowing where
they're gonna be working.

Mm-hmm.

'Cause sometimes it's two
different things, you know?

Right, right.

It could be two different states, right?

Do you have to bend to both states then?

Let's say they're living in Utah
and working in Idaho, do you have to

take both of those into account when
you're giving them a background check?

No.

What you, you lean towards the state
in which the job is taking place.

Okay.

Now, that's not the
headquarters of the company.

That is- Right … where
is this person working?

So if I'm a, you know, I live in Indiana,
but I'm commuting to Chicago, the

background screen's gonna be in Chicago.

Hmm.

Okay.

They're gonna follow the laws of Illinois.

We maintain a library of different
forms and requirements that need to take

place from state to state, and based
on the data that we get, we provide

the right forms and information to the
candidate to ensure that- That's good

everything's being done correctly.

Okay.

So it sounds like your application
helps employers follow the law for…

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

It helps- Try to make it as
easy for them as possible.

Mm-hmm.

Where w- we don't really ask
them to remember all this stuff

necessarily, but we need to know it.

Yeah.

For sure.

Yeah.

So it helps the employer keep up with
the different laws that the county or

the states and the cities have, right?

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah.

That's great.

So you had mentioned Ban the Box.

Would you go into that a little
bit, describe what that is?

Yeah, so Ban the Box is really about bias.

It refers to a checkbox that
used to be on applications.

I remember this when I was a kid.

Uh-huh.

And you'd have to check a box,
and you'd have to say, "Have you

ever been convicted of a crime?

Yes or no?" Um, yeah, and I hated these
applications 'cause my handwriting stinks.

You know, in the old days, you did
everything with a pen or a pencil.

So- Right … but, uh, you know, that,
that's really not a good question

to ask prior to hiring, deciding to
hire the candidate, because they may

have been convicted of something.

It could be I got convicted 'cause
I shoplifted a, like, some gum.

Mm-hmm.

You know?

Something like that.

Or it could be I've been convicted
of murder, who knows, right?

It, the question itself doesn't really
tell you anything that you need to know.

Right.

So in some states, there are Ban
the Box laws that prohibit the

employer from asking that question
in the initial application.

So, and it varies a lot, right?

It could be the initial application,
or you can't ask it until after an

interview, or you can't ask it after
a conditional offer of employment,

uh, a- a- that kind of stuff.

And the reason is because states
don't want- To create a group of

people that are not employable-

Mm-hmm

you know, based on some
of their background.

Like, like Michael, kind of like
what we were talking about, like

being a knucklehead, you know?

Um- Yeah … we all go through
our knucklehead moments.

That doesn't mean- Yeah … we're
not qualified to do the job.

Right.

So that's why, that, because of those
laws in general, that's why mostly

background screens happen after the
offer, until the offer goes out,

conditional on the background screen.

Right.

So in other words, they've done,
they, they've done the testing

with Biddle, they've asked,
they've done all the interviews.

They feel like, "Okay, this
is a really good fit for us.

This is a good person.

We want to hire them.

Here's the, here's what
we're gonna offer you.

Now you need to do a background screen."

Right.

And it removes the bias from the process.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that, yeah, that makes sense.

Does that help?

It, it was in, just in researching
or in prepping for our interview

that I saw that term, and I
thought, "Okay, have to ask that."

So.

Well, it, it's kind of funny, 'cause I
don't really think that checkbox exists

in any application anywhere anymore.

Like I haven't seen it
for years and years.

So-

Must have been

banned.

It must have been banned, yeah.

So the name itself is kind of outdated,
but that's where it comes from.

Yeah.

So what does… Let's talk about
the candidate for a second.

What does a good candidate experience look
like in the background screening process?

Well, from the candidate's point of view,
number one thing is it has to be easy-

Hmm

…
and understandable.

Mm-hmm.

You don't want a situation where the
candidates are asking a lot of questions.

So it has to be very prescriptive, quick.

You know, you can get through our s- a
candidate can finish their part of it,

which is, what happens is they have to
sign different types of forms, again,

depending on the state, and, uh, our ca-
the candidates that use our solution can

get through that in just a few minutes.

Okay.

It, it's really easy for them.

Everything comes in a package.

The forms are short.

Uh, the, you know, you can
digitally sign everything.

Is it all electronic?

It's all electronic, every bit of it.

E- even when there's
exceptions or additions-

Hmm

…
based on state laws, it's
still all electronic.

And so you don't want it, you
don't want that to be a blocker

to your ability to make the hire.

We don't want to be the cause
of candidates dropping out

because the background screening
process got too complicated.

So the other part of it though is
you need to support candidates, and

a lot of people don't really realize
this, but I mean, we have support

teams that support candidates.

Hmm.

If they do have questions, they
can call us or chat with us and

ask us those questions to clar-
clarify any concerns that they have.

That's prior to s- to signing the forms,
after signing the forms, while they're

waiting for the background screens to come
back, or even after the report comes back.

They have the ability to engage with us
at any of those moments and make sure

that their questions are being answered.

So that's also another critical part
of it, and making that, again, easy.

Like, we're very, in this
case, when it comes to support,

we're very people-focused.

Mm-hmm.

We don't really want to push people to
places where they have to go searching

for something and they can't find it.

We're available.

You can dial a phone number
and we'll pick it up.

Hmm.

Or you can chat with us and
we'll chat back with you, right?

Like, you're dealing… Most of the time
with us, you're dealing with people.

Mm-hmm.

Outstanding

But I have two questions
about remote workers.

You brought up a scenario
a little bit earlier.

You've got a, you know, Ian lives in
Indiana and is being employed in Chicago.

Mm-hmm.

But what if you never go into the
office, or rarely go into the office?

You're gonna work from home, for instance.

Does that affect the venue in
terms of what legal forms or, or-

Sure … that aspect of compliance?

Yeah, it sure does.

Like, you know, think about it.

Um, let's go back to you and your Social
Security card, having to show that, right?

And back in the days when everything
was paper, could you imagine what that

would look like if you had 100% remote
workforce working all over the country?

I know.

You know, it would be impossible-

Right

…
to manage.

Yeah.

And to, you know, with us, because
everything is digital, and the

technology's there to support it…
Like for example, at First, we are 100%

remote, and we have been since COVID.

And we have- Right … we now have
employees all over the country.

It's our solution that
allows us to do that.

It, it's because I'm in Idaho, so, which
we happen to be headquartered here.

Um, but, you know, our solution will look
at the State of Idaho and provide me as

a candidate, and our customers in Idaho
with all the right tools and information.

So that's a case where the home address
and the workplace are the same, right?

When you're- Right … remote.

So we're capable of doing that in all 50
states, and it, it really opens up the

hiring pools for our, our customers, so
they can really hire anywhere they want.

We have a remote, uh, solution where
instead of somebody having to come into

the office to sign all these forms, the
remote solution is send them the invite

and send them everything digitally.

Mm.

Right?

That's great.

And that's all the way to, like I-9.

There's remote solutions for I-9 as
well, which we provide, that enables

that kind of, uh, remote workforce.

And, and, you know, um, we're
seeing that more and more.

I mean, we used to be
mostly an Idaho company.

Right.

Uh, but COVID changed that for us.

Yeah, definitely.

So, you know, we used to have a
two-story building, uh, in Boise,

and now we don't, and we don't have
as many people here as we used to.

Right.

So here's my follow-up, uh, and
this is, you know… Well, at

any rate, y- you listen to it and
decide if it's even a question.

I was thinking at first that having a
remote workforce might take away some of

the necessity for background screening
because you're not necessarily having

humans get in touch with one another.

But then on the other hand, I was
also thinking now you have a workforce

that is mostly unsupervised and has
access to the most critical aspects

of a company through technology.

So, has this whole remote workforce aspect
really changed anything at all for you

guys, or is it still pretty much the same?

Well, it's changed things for companies.

Uh, uh, something you, you probably
don't know about me is I, I was an

early advocate for work at home.

I was the chair of, uh, a work at home
group in Phoenix, Arizona when I lived

there, and we did… We would have open
source meetings with large companies

and talk about work at home with them.

You know, we're talking about
companies like Wells Fargo, U-

and large insurance companies.

You know, we're companies that had
employees all over the country.

Mm-hmm.

Um, so it does change a couple things.

One is you gotta have the right
solution in place to be able to

do it when it comes to hiring.

But additional considerations
come into that.

These are kind of screen-like
things, but, you know, you need to

know that they have a workspace,
that the workspace is private.

If you're gonna, if you're hiring
an executive like me that works at

home, you need to do a credit check.

If, so, uh, part of doing that,
for a company to do a credit check,

they have to show the person that's
conducting that screen or launching

that screen has a private workspace.

Mm.

You don't want people looking
over your shoulder when you're

doing those kind of screens.

Right.

You don't want people looking over
your shoulder when those screens come

back and you're looking at reports.

So yeah, there are some
requirements around work at home

that change a, a lot of things.

So, like, for Verified
First, we have to do that.

We have to show that our compliance teams
that are working at home have private

spaces with doors that can get, be shut.

Right.

And, like, your kids aren't coming in
there and looking at stuff, or your

husband's, or husband or wife isn't
coming in there and looking at things.

You know, it, it has to be
a, an enclosed, secure space.

Right.

So, uh, all those things have to
be taken into consideration when

you're, you're doing work at home.

I also think it makes the screens
more critical You know, it makes

background screening so many more
critical because it's different, right?

When you're engaging with people remotely
versus in person, you know, sometimes

body language c- gets taken out of play.

You know, you don't have a good a
read as, on people as you would.

You know, with work at home, it's
really about output and are they

producing what they should produce.

Right.

And that goes back to
hiring the right people-

Yeah

…
to the right job with
the right background.

So, you know, it's… I think it, it
becomes even more important, not less.

Excellent.

That's g- good points.

We, we'd definitely like to continue
this conversation with you, but I think

what we'll do is w- we're gonna go
ahead and just wrap up the first part

of this, and we'll have a part two,
a follow-up meeting with you, Ian.

Uh, before we wrap up part one, uh, is
there anything else that you'd like to

add about what we've talked about so far?

Well, you got… Now I have so much on
my mind, I don't know where to start.

Uh- Um-

W- without doing part two, is
there anything you'd like to add?

Yeah, I would just say for anyone,
any company that ends up watching

this, I, I would just reiterate,
please do background screens on your

teams and make sure that they're the
right people for your organization.

And obviously, we're there to help
with that, but more importantly, work

with somebody to make that happen.

Yeah.

And make sure you're doing the
right screens for the right role.

Right.

Good food for thought.

Thank you.

Ian, if somebody who's listening
is interested in doing just that,

getting started with their own
background screening process, how

do they connect with Verified First?

They can contact me at
iboulais@verifiedfirst.com.

They can go to our website at
verifiedfirst.com, and we have a

form on site where they can ask
to find out more information.

They can also go there just to see
all the different screens we provide-

Mm-hmm

…
um, and find out more about the
background screening process.

If they fill out the form, typically
someone gets back to them that day, and

we're more than willing to help them out.

Great.

Okay, and we'll also link to
your website in our show notes-

Okay

…
so that they can just one click,
and they can be right there.

That sounds great.

Thank you.

All right, well, thank you, gentlemen.

I've enjoyed this conversation
today and learning about something

that I knew absolutely zero about.

Now I know a little bit more, so
thank you for that, and thanks to our

listener or our viewer for tuning in.

All right.

Yeah.

Catch

us next

time.

All right.

And thank, thanks, Ian, for being here.

Yeah.

See y'all.

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